When you teach someone to pass, which end of the spectrum are you closer to?:
This is a competition thread which ran from 4th Dec 2015 to 11th Dec 2015. View results.
Brook Roberts - - Genitore #
I want to click an option but find it almost impossible to do so.
If I'm teaching someone to pass, I merrily tell them it's time to move on whenever we get a short run, and head straight towards one count, whereupon they really just need to make sure the clubs go forward and up and we can run it.
If my partner who I can pass 9 clubs with is doing 7 club one-count/giving me 6 club 2 count for body throws, and they aren't perfect, then I tend to point out possibly a lot more things than they would like. And get frustrated that they don't!
I think passing body moves is probably the best example of this. If someone is learning shoulder throws with me, I'm a huge fan of telling them to just try and run it once they've landed like two - I'll catch everything and not complain - because it lets them get a feel for the trick. But if they're feeding me, they better not be lazy just because they're passing 6 club 2-count! (yes I know my stupid albert combo pass was 3 feet to the right and 1 1/2 spins over, but your pass was a little low, could you fix it please :) )
I think it's also really useful to say how much feedback you want. Some people I know will say 'no feedback yet', and then in a few minutes when they've sorted out the pattern, request feedback. Ideally I would be giving them the right amount of feedback, but I often given too much or too little, so feedback feedback is useful, and is conveying how much spare capacity you have at your end of the pattern.
Mike Moore - - Genitore #
Yes, I think there's value in saying how much feedback you want. When I do a pattern for the first time, it normally takes me a few runs to get my hands to automatically make the correct types of throws before I can start dealing with accuracy issues.
"Give me a few runs to get this sorted"
Saying how much feedback you want up front is a good plan if you know what is going to be useful to you, but will a newbie really know? I think there is a lot of pressure to take feedback even when it is not helpful. I think there is a point where a newbie becomes ready for feedback but it takes a while to get to it. In the face of a battle-scarred veteran passer I think most virgin passers will panic & say, "Ooh, constructive criticism, that's good. Honesty, that's good too. I'll have lots of that please." I've seen poor newbies battered by a catalogue of errors way beyond their current ability to correct. I've never asked anyone I've taught how much feedback they want. Probably arrogance on my part because I think I know best?
I'm definitely closer to option 2. I find that if you take away the pressure to make perfect passes the pupil improves much more rapidly. A lot of the people I teach to pass haven't got a very solid cascade yet. I'm a strong believer that learning to pass as soon as possible is a good thing. I really do it to give them a bit of variety to their practice so they don't get bored of drilling the cascade on their own (which is apparently a problem for some other people), so I don't care what their passes are like, I'm sneakily trying to get them to do more self throws.
Richard Loxley - - Genitore #
Ah, I missed the idea that this was complete beginners at passing. Since everyone I know is "still learning", even after several years, that's what I'd assumed!
For complete beginners, I think if I'm capable of catching the passes, I'd just keep quiet and let them improve. If I can't catch them, then I'll wait until I've noticed a pattern to what they're doing wrong, then suggest a change there.
Brook Roberts - - Genitore #
Yes, I agree, I was talking in general. For complete beginners, none, or really basic, one comment.
1.5 Give them enough feedback to work on. But don't overload them with too much to think about.
Mike Moore - - Genitore #
I'm assuming this is assuming there's a big skill asymmetry between me and the other person. If so, I deal with whatever they throw at me until the variability in their throws starts to tighten up. At that point, I think they're ready for feedback.
That said, normally the feedback (for a new passer, anyway) is "okay, good, let's change the count."
Mike Moore - - Genitore #
Eesh, a triple post, but I want to say this anyway: I get bored when someone throws me perfect passes!
Little Paul - - Genitore #
I'm probably somewhere in the middle of those two options. I'll deal with anything that's within arms reach, if it's not in arms reach I'll keep sending good, on-time passes until I can recover the drop. I try to give encouraging feedback during the run ("nice!, that's it! more like that!")
But I'll save more detailed feedback at the end of a run if there's a consistent problem (eg, "those passes got longer as they went on" or "you're consistently sending half a spin too much")
Oh, and because I'm British, I'll spend as much time apologising for not being able to catch everything...
However, if I'm passing with an experienced passer[1] and trying to improve my throws (which given that I pass about once a year these days, leaves quite a lot of room for improvement) then I tend to criticise my own throws and actively seek detailed corrective advice.
[1] which basically means Mamph
3. Pick one thing they would get most benefit from working on. Tell them about that one thing. Then point out every pass where they get that thing RIGHT.
Also teach them to look through the pattern so they can see more easily for themselves what's going wrong.
Richard Loxley - - Genitore #
Right in the middle of the two.
I don't point out mistakes unless at least half their throws have the same mistake, in which case I'll point it out during the next pause.
I think I'm closer to option 2. Definitely not commenting on every pass, but after a drop I might say something like "Okay, good, but many of your passes are a bit short. Do you think that you can make them a bit longer?" or "Did you notice that I got one of your passes to the wrong hand?". The second more to see if they have learned to see my cathces than to correct something that happened once...
It depends a bit on how much I think they are able to fix too, if it looks like the pattern is very difficult to them or I know they don't really have a solid cascade yet I'll probably give less feedback, at least as long at it's good enough to not mess up my passes to them.
Not that I have taught many people to pass yet, very few, and only like 3-4 of them had never tried any passing at all before.
Like Orin I think learning to pass soon is a good thing, and of course, since I think passing is the best kind of juggling I want every new juggler to learn and have fun with passing. Sometimes I try to teach someone 5 clubs 1-count before they have even learned to juggle...
The first few rounds, I usually don't say much. I stress them making eye contact, though, and watching their own clubs less. If they do that, they get some sense of the corrections I'm making (reaching out to snag their outside pass, moving to avoid their inside pass, reaching for short or long passes, etc,). I tell them not to worry about it, just get used to passing. Once they get comfortable letting the club go like that, then I give them feedback to work on their passing.
When I learned, I was told (and I teach) that the responsibility for the pass is with the passer, but once the pass leaves your hand, there is nothing else you could do; you can only fix your next pass.
This poll has now ended. The results are:
Daniel Simu - - Genitore #
Wow, that was a one sided poll!
I haven't really followed much of the discussion, but perhaps I'll read some now that I figure that I am the only one who voted for option one.
I am just closer to that end of the spectrum, not at all pointing out EVERY flaw, mostly focussing on one at a time. Starting with distance, then width, and only later spin. And not just correcting passes, also receiving, selfs, body position, etc. Just small bits at a time.
Of course there is a lot of fast progress at the very beginning even without my interruption, and the first few minutes it might be more important to provide for motivation instead of critique. However, I think anything goes better when you are aware of what goes on. And there is so much new stuff going on at once, that it might help if I shift your focus to a specific aspect, especially since I can compensate for any errors that follow from correcting something simple like a tongue out of mouth.
Brook Roberts - - Genitore #
Well, it's a bit tricky, since hopefully most of us would pick something inbetween the two! Also, I changed my vote when Orinoco clarifed he was talking about real beginner passes, rather than just teaching someone, or passing with someone of comparable ability.
Normally when I teach complete beginners, I like to excite them by getting them to power through quite a few patterns. I like their first experience of passing to be exciting rather than me badgering them about technique (plenty of time for that later ;) )
Daniel Simu - - Genitore #
Not too long after posting this, I ended up passing with a relative beginner (managed in the end 6 passes of 3count).
I do indeed correct throws that are off, but mostly they are too inconsistent to point out specific flaws!
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